Just saw this post for the first time. Huge thanks to the original poster.
Indian Larry
JoinedPosts by Indian Larry
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45
Talking points for reasoning with JWs
by bluecanary ini've emailed this to several people now so figured i might as well post it and share with all.
the following information has been compiled from various sources on the web, including jwfacts.com and free minds.
a fraction of it is from my own mind.
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There Is No 'Heavenly Hope'!
by The Searcher inpropitiatory sacrifice.
this is how christ's death is described three times in the scriptures.. the apostle john wrote, "the love is in this respect, not that we have loved god, but that he loved us and sent forth his son as a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins.
" (1 john 4:10).
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Indian Larry
Below is some research I am doing on whether or not the bible holds out the hope of heaven for all, earth for all, or the two class system that Rutherford thought.
First off is Jesus return to be visible or invisible like Russell said?
Acts 1:11) 11 and they said: “Men of Gal′i·lee, why do YOU stand looking into the sky? This Jesus who was received up from YOU into the sky will come thus in the same manner as YOU have beheld him going into the sky.”
(Matthew 24:30) 30 And then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.(sounds visible to me)
(Titus 2:13) 13 while we wait for the happy hope and glorious manifestation of the great God and of [the] Savior of us, Christ Jesus, (manifestation sounds like something you would see)
(Zechariah 14:3, 4) . . .. 4 And his feet will actually stand in that day upon the mountain of the olive trees, which is in front of Jerusalem, on the east; and the mountain of the olive trees must be split at its middle, from the sunrising and to the west. There will be a very great valley; and half of the mountain will actually be moved to the north, and half of it to the south. (Hard to stand on a mountain in the middle east and be in heaven at the same time)
(Matthew 26:29) . . .But I tell YOU, I will by no means drink henceforth any of this product of the vine until that day when I drink it new with YOU in the kingdom of my Father.” (How could he drink of the vine if he was not on earth. Do grapes grow in heaven)
(Matthew 25:31-33) 31 “When the Son of man arrives in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. 32 And all the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will put the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. (If the nations are to be gathered before Jesus that sounds like he will be ruling on earth to me)
(Revelation 1:7) 7 Look! He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief because of him. Yes, Amen. (every eye will see him = visible return)
Where will Jesus rule be?
(Acts 13:32) 32 “And so we are declaring to YOU the good news about the promise made to the forefathers,(What was the promise made to the forefathers? To occupy the land and to rule over the earth, from Israel. To my knowledge there was never a promise to the forefathers of going to heaven)
(Romans 15:8) 8 For I say that Christ actually became a minister of those who are circumcised in behalf of God’s truthfulness, so as to verify the promises He made to their forefathers,(see note above)
(Matthew 6:9, 10) . . .Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified. 10 Let your kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also upon earth. (If you read this scripture without any preconceived notions about 144,000 ruling in heave then it does seem like the kingdom would be UPON EARTH)
(Revelation 5:10) 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.. . . (Kingdom Interlinear Translation reads: rule as kings UPON the earth)
(Acts 15:16) . . .‘After these things I shall return and rebuild the booth of David that is fallen down; and I shall rebuild its ruins and erect it again, (I am not a bible scholar, but this sounds like the earth to me)
(Revelation 21:2, 3) . . .. 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them.
(Psalm 72:7-9) 7 In his days the righteous one will sprout, And the abundance of peace until the moon is no more. 8 And he will have subjects from sea to sea And from the River to the ends of the earth. 9 Before him the inhabitants of waterless regions will bow down, And his very enemies will lick the dust itself. . . (again, I am not a scholar but this scripture certainly sounds like it is speaking of a kingdom on the physical earth)
(Isaiah 2:3) . . . And many peoples will certainly go and say: “Come, YOU people, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will instruct us about his ways, and we will walk in his paths.” For out of Zion law will go forth, and the word of Jehovah out of Jerusalem.
Kingdom of the Heavens = Kingdom of God
So far I have only found the phrase “kingdom of the heavens” in Matthew. It can be seen clearly from the scriptures below that when Matthew speaks of the “kingdom of the heavens” he does not mean the kingdom IN the heavens. He means the kingdom of God.
(Matthew 3:1, 2) . . .In those days John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness of Ju·de′a, 2 saying: “REPENT, for the kingdom of the heavens has drawn near .”
(Mark 1:14, 15) 14 Now after John was put under arrest Jesus went into Gal′i·lee, preaching the good news of God 15 and saying: “The appointed time has been fulfilled, and thekingdom of God has drawn near. Be repentant,. . .
(Matthew 13:24) . . .Another illustration he set before them, saying: “The kingdom of the heavens has become like a man that sowed fine seed in his field. . .
(Mark 4:26) . . .So he went on to say: “In this way the kingdom of God is just as when a man casts the seed upon the ground. . .
(Matthew 19:23) . . .But Jesus said to his disciples: “Truly I say to YOU that it will be a difficult thing for a rich man to get into the kingdom of the heavens.
(Mark 10:23) . . .After looking around Jesus said to his disciples: “How difficult a thing it will be for those with money to enter into the kingdom of God!”
(John 3:3) . . .In answer Jesus said to him: “Most truly I say to you, Unless anyone is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
(John 3:5) . . .Jesus answered: “Most truly I say to you, Unless anyone is born from water and spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Does the average Witness expect to see the kingdom of God?
No. The average witness expects that only the 144,000 will see the kingdom of God. This is why in the parable of the wheat and the weeds in the July 15 Watchtower the caption next to the drawing of the wheat says that the wheat are only the anointed. Of course that raises the question: If the average witness is not wheat what is he? That is off this topic though. The average witness does NOT expect to enter the kingdom of God. The average witness believes that is reserved solely for the anointed.
(John 3:5) . . .Jesus answered: “Most truly I say to you, Unless anyone is born from water and spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
The faithful slave teaches us that only the 144,000 are born of the spirit. They also teach that only the 144,000 are “sons of God” and apply this scripture to themselves only:
(Galatians 4:3-7) 3 Likewise we also, when we were babes, continued enslaved by the elementary things belonging to the world. 4 But when the full limit of the time arrived, God sent forth his Son, who came to be out of a woman and who came to be under law, 5 that he might release by purchase those under law, that we, in turn, might receive the adoption as sons. 6 Now because YOU are sons, God has sent forth the spirit of his Son into our hearts and it cries out: “Abba, Father!” 7 So, then, you are no longer a slave but a son; and if a son, also an heir through God
Question that raises is if the average witness can not consider himself to be a “son of God” (according to the FDS), then what are they?
(1 John 3:10) . . .The children of God and the children of the Devil are evident by this fact: Everyone who does not carry on righteousness does not originate with God, neither does he who does not love his brother. (are the anointed saying that only they carry on righteousness? If only they are children of God that is the implication)
(Matthew 5:9) 9 “Happy are the peaceable, since they will be called ‘sons of God.’ (only the anointed are peaceable? Isn’t it ironic that a couple of thousand JW’s died in concentration camps because they were peaceable but according to the slave class they are not considered “sons of God” and won’t be until they prove themselves for 1000 years more. In the meantime Rutherford who tried to placate Hitler is NOW a son of God, same thing with those who associated with the UN, they are sons of God now but not)
(Galatians 3:26-29) . . .YOU are all, in fact, sons of God through YOUR faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of YOU who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for YOU are all one [person] in union with Christ Jesus. 29 Moreover, if YOU belong to Christ, YOU are really Abraham’s seed, heirs with reference to a promise. (note that the promise to Abraham was an earthly promise. Not heavenly)
We have always been taught that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob will never go to heaven and that they will be resurrected to earth. The scripture below shows that they will be in the “kingdom of the heavens” so obviously the paradise on earth is at least part kingdom of the heavens
(Matthew 8:11) But I tell YOU that many from eastern parts and western parts will com and recline at the table with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of the heavens.
So, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob will be on earth, and the bible says that they will be in the kingdom of god, but the Jehovah’s witnesses can not be in the kingdom of God because that is limited only to the 144,000 according to the “faithful slave”
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How does TTATT affect your marriage??
by Crazyguy injust wondering of those of you that have left or are fading and have married ones still in, how is it going, is there hope or is the marriage doomed?
wondering what are the percentages.
i'm fading fast but wife is zealous as ever and we don't talk spiritual things at all anymore.
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Indian Larry
It is difficult, very difficult. For instance, I have both my wife and daughter have heard me discuss how Rutherford tried to compromise with Hitler, they know that I feel that the blood doctrine as the society defines it is contradictory and not biblically based. They also know how I feel about the problem that the Watchtower has had with pedophiles.
Now my wife is bringing my daughter to the disctrict assembly. Saturday afternoon my daughter will hear a hate filled talk that describes those very issues and calls people who do not believe as they do apostates. My wife and daughter will hear someone whom they belive is part of sole channel of communication from God say I am part of the "seed of Satan" that I am part of the antichrist. I am not nuts about my daughter spending Saturday afternoon hearing someone she respects saying that her father is a lyer and to stay away from him.
Thing is I have successfully faded, I am not DF'd, and I do honestly still belive in both God and Jesus. I do still belive in a earthly kingdom, I don't belive in eternal torment of hell either. However I believe the FDS is a parable not a prophecy and I do not accept these self proclaimed leaders.
Problem is my daughter has a lot of really nice friends in the hall. They are good kids. Honestly better than most others that I personally know. She is not baptized (or even an unbaptized publisher yet) but her social ties are STRONG. Also she is like I was at her age. If I forbid her from going to the hall, nothing could stop her. My wife is totally under influence of the mind control techniques that the organization uses so there is no way to reach her. Any logical argument has no chance. Proof from old Watchtowers means nothing. Her cognitive dissonence is very strong. If I say anything she gets really upset, so I try not to rock the boat.
What that leads to is a very superficial relationship between my wife and myself and to a lesser extent my daughter. I see our marriage on a downward slide. I am not giving up however. One of the things I always treasured in my marrage is that my wife and I always had good communication. TTATT has taken that away. Now we are just going through the motions and I HATE it.
It's not like I am trying to stop her from going to the hall, I just wish she would discuss these issues with me on an adult level, but that will not happen.
I told her if she would prove to me that the men who claim to be the faithful slave really were who they say they are I would forget all my other issues and come back to the meetings on a regular basis. Problem is I told her this over a year ago and she has not even (to my knowledge) done any research or made any attempt to prove it. Never the less that does not stop her from taking my daugher to the meetings to hear how bad of a person her father is. Of course she is never irregular in service either. I have told both of them any Saturday they want to talk to someone about the bible they have an interested person in the house (me), but they would rather go put in "time" going door to door and leave me to be bird food. Honestly that does piss me off.
The other problem is that we can not have a family study because there is so much I disagree with. I tried having a study just reading directly from Romans and Galations but I can't seem to get through one chapter without making both of them mad at me.
It sucks all around.
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Whats the most damning of the July 15 2013 changes?
by Crazyguy ina lot of the rank and file at the meetings seem to think some of the changes make more sense but what is the most damning of the changes that may help to wake to some up.
some thing the rank and file will not first see or understand as a big deal?.
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Indian Larry
Great find leaving_quietly!
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My Study: "Did a 'Governing Body' govern Paul?"
by Doug Mason in[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:officedocumentsettings> <o:allowpng /> </o:officedocumentsettings> </xml><![endif].
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Indian Larry
Doug, I would like to thank you very much for all the reasearch you have done. I have downloaded both .PDF's and I plan on studying them tonight. Thanks again!
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If Luke 16:19-31 is fictional then would that not apply to Matthew 24:45-47 as well
by I_love_Jeff inhow do the jehovah's witnesses determine which parable is to be taken literally, such as matthew 24:45-47, and which one, for example luke 16:19-31, is an allegory?.
are both parables not open to interpretation in the eyes of the jehovah's witnesses?
are they using the eisegetical approach to scripture?.
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Indian Larry
Stop! You are making a big mistake. No logical thinking allowed. Don't think about the bible, perhaps you are studying it too much. Get a hobby. Trust the organization. Do not try to make sense where there is none. It iwll drive you crazy. : )
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I Need an Email Mediator to Send TTATT
by Emery inthis may be a weird request but it helps keep my identity, and ip address anonymous.
i need someone to help me email a copy of cofc pdf to a few jdubs i know.
i plan on sending it to people i feel are on the fence and need a little shove to get them started.
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I Need an Email Mediator to Send TTATT
by Emery inthis may be a weird request but it helps keep my identity, and ip address anonymous.
i need someone to help me email a copy of cofc pdf to a few jdubs i know.
i plan on sending it to people i feel are on the fence and need a little shove to get them started.
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Indian Larry
Nevermind. I just checked and if they are computer savvy it is possible to get the IP even from Gmail.
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I Need an Email Mediator to Send TTATT
by Emery inthis may be a weird request but it helps keep my identity, and ip address anonymous.
i need someone to help me email a copy of cofc pdf to a few jdubs i know.
i plan on sending it to people i feel are on the fence and need a little shove to get them started.
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Indian Larry
Just get a gmail account with a different name. To my knowlege there is no way to track that as it does not come from your computer but rather Googles servers.
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Elders' Gems of Wisdom
by stephenw20 inmy dad asked the co about this one.
mat 27:52-53. and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, .
and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
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Indian Larry
One time one of the elders was sitting in his chair with his one leg crossed over the other. The toe of his right foot was in the space between the back and seat of the (empty) chair in front of him. Along came a VERY large sister (at least 400lb) and flopped down in the chair trapping his foot. We were laughing so hard the whole row shook.